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Summary
Peter Murphy Lewis and Jalene Carpenter are joined by Philip Scalo, Founder and Chairman of Bartley Healthcare and Chairman of Preferred Care Management. An attorney who began his career representing health-care clients, Phil pivoted in the 1980s to build a better model for long-term care, founding Bartley Healthcare in 1984.
He has grown it into one of New Jersey's most awarded senior living organizations, spanning skilled nursing, rehab, assisted living, memory care, hospice, and home care. Phil shares his perspective on the industry's big wins, the fight for regulatory relief, and the formative moments that have shaped his leadership philosophy. He discusses the critical role of the AHCA in supporting its members and the importance of changing the public perception of the entire long-term care sector.
Key Takeaways:
(00:00) Introduction.
(03:24) Building a better care model was the best way to argue for better care.
(06:08) Quality senior care is found even in rural communities across the country.
(08:20) Representing long-term care professionals is a great honor for leadership.
(11:00) Industry-wide legal action requires uniting diverse state perspectives.
(13:28) Surviving existential threats requires unity around a great mission.
(16:16) Documentary storytelling effectively portrays the reality of long-term care.
(19:08) The care profession must combat the feeling of being "just a" worker.
(23:56) Cautious optimism for more appropriate regulations.
(27:40) Success in any field is built on hard work, passion, and humble aspiration.
(37:52) Every team member makes a difference and has great, valued potential.
Resources Mentioned:
Preferred Care Management website
“Getting to Yes” by Roger Fisher and William Ury
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For more information and to connect with our guests, visit PeopleWorthCaringAbout.com.
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Transcript
Phil Scalo: One of the things that I've also learned is don't keep patting yourself on the back of how good you are because there's always somebody that's better, and there's always some way you can do something better. And I learned that... I learned how to work hard. I learned how to aspire. And I learned how to stay humble because the people I were around, if I got a big head — you know that phrase "big head"? — they would certainly deflate it very quickly. So I think that was the most formative thing for me.
Peter Murphy Lewis: The world does not run on headlines. It runs on people who care. I'm Peter Murphy Lewis, and this is "People Worth Caring About." Alongside my co-host, Jalene Carpenter, we sit down with the unsung heroes, caregivers, healers, helpers, the ones doing the real work, even when no one is watching. These conversations are not polished, they're personal, because behind every act of care is a story worth hearing. New episodes drop regularly. Get updates at peopleworthcaringabout.com. Hey, Jalene.
Jalene Carpenter: Hello, Peter. It's good to see you.
Peter Murphy Lewis: You don't say "hola" any longer?
Jalene Carpenter: I've never said that, Peter. You said that.
Peter Murphy Lewis: Jalene, I am giddy today. Giddy, because we have somebody important in both of our lives, both professionally, personally admiring. And while I have done a lot of interviews, I don't get giddy very often, but I am today.
Jalene Carpenter: You don't get giddy every time you and I have a chance to visit and talk and share our story, share everything about "People Worth Caring About"? You're never giddy then, you're only giddy today?
Peter Murphy Lewis: No, no, no. And it started about three weeks ago. I think I messaged you or text you, and I said, "Phil Scalo is in the room." I was at the Alaska Convention and I found out that he was coming. I saw him as a speaker and then I found out he was coming to the board dinner and I was so excited. He was one of the first people came in. I didn't know anyone. I was one of the first people there, so we huddled up and got our long-term care chat on.
Jalene Carpenter: That's awesome. Well, I'm excited for Phil today, as well, but probably for a different reason. He is the big wig, the big cheese at AHCA right now. So I am excited, but probably not giddy.
Peter Murphy Lewis: I guess I feel...
Jalene Carpenter: No, don't tell Phil that. Don't tell Phil I'm not giddy.
Peter Murphy Lewis: A 45-year-old man from Wichita, Kansas probably shouldn't say giddy. I guess that feels teenager, but I don't know. I feel... Well, I guess what are the kind of questions that you want to ask him? I want to ask him, what is Cliff and Mark like when they're not the important, prestigious person on stage leading our country? What are they like personally? What do you want to ask about?
Jalene Carpenter: Well, I'm an industry geek. This is my whole world. So I'm excited to unpack just some successes that he had around minimum staffing, but then just how our industry works. It's like we just forgot we came through super hard crisis because we're already to the next thing, and there's OB3 and there's money at play and there's all these things happening. So that's what I'm most excited about.
Peter Murphy Lewis: All right. You ready for the intro and then we'll let him in?
Jalene Carpenter: I'm ready. I'm not giddy, but I'm ready.
Peter Murphy Lewis: But you do geek out on long-term care. I don't know which one is weirder. Giddy about finding my mentor or you geeking out on long-term care. Here we go. So, Listeners, if you don't already know him, meet Phil Scalo. The attorney who wandered into long-term care in the '80s and never left because he decided the best way to argue for better care was to build it.
He founded Bartley Healthcare in 1984, grew it into one of New Jersey's most decorated senior living organizations, spanning skilled nursing, rehab, assisted living, memory care, hospice, and home care. And today, Phil chairs American Health Care Association. He's also a very, very proud Rutgers lifer. Rutgers College, '75. Rutgers Law, '78. He bleeds scarlet through and through.
Along the way, his teams have racked up a lot of awards. Jalene, you know these awards. The AHCA Quality Awards, the Best Practice NODS, the Best of the Best, US News Best Nursing Homes, and those coveted five-star ratings. Not bad for a one-time varsity football-letter-winning-coat player who also coached kids on skis and soccer fields. I can't even ski anymore, let alone coach anyone.
And, Jalene, most importantly to you and me, Phil was one of the first, I'm going to say the first, leader in long-term care to stand up and champion our documentary "People Worth Caring About." He happened to be there in person for the premier. The kind of early belief that keeps storytellers like you and me going and moves this industry forward. Phil, welcome to "People Worth Caring About" podcast.
Phil Scalo: Well, it's great to be here, Peter and Jalene. Hearing the introduction, I was wondering who you were talking about. It doesn't seem like it's me, but I guess I did all those things.
Peter Murphy Lewis: Phil, I want to start off with something personal. And I learned this, I think, three or four days ago. Is it true that you drive all over the country and you travel with four-legged friends, family members?
Phil Scalo: Well, we split our time between Colorado and New Jersey. Our business is in New Jersey. I still have some business out here in Colorado. So we have decided, or actually I haven't, that's part of that. I was told by my wife, we're not putting our golden retriever... And before that, we also had a black lab. We're not putting them on a plane. We're driving.
So the deal is, Marilyn drives a good part of the day. I'm on the phone or doing some work, and we do it several times a year, and we just got done doing it, and just got back to Colorado a few days ago. Went through... It's interesting. I mentioned to Jalene earlier, we stopped at a place in Iowa — Stuart, Iowa — and took our golden retriever for a little walk, and walked down a block and there was a nursing home.
It was compassionate care nursing home. So I was tempted to go in, but I did not. But it was just interesting that even when I stop on a very rural place, I find a nursing home somewhere doing a good job, I assume. There were a lot of cars outside.
Peter Murphy Lewis: Phil, I have one more personal question and then I'll let Jalene ask some industry questions. Before we went live, you mentioned that you were speaking to another Nebraska thought leader in the long-term care space, and I won't mention his name unless you want to. What does the chair of the board and this other thought leader, board member, talk about when you're driving across the country? What's your conversation? Let me be a fly on the wall.
Phil Scalo: Well, the person I spoke to was actually somebody from Nebraska who I think was Jalene's predecessor, Heath Boddy, who I respect very much. And when I first got involved in AHCA, Heath was a state exec in Nebraska, and Heath became one of the people that I would always turn to when I want to know what was happening in the Midwest. He now is the COO of Vetter, a tremendous company focused on quality.
And I think soon to be the CEO as their CEO, who is also a tremendous guy, Glenn Van Ekeren, is retiring. He was just recently appointed to the board. So we spoke a little bit about board activities. I got a little bit of input from him as to some quality issues, and was just really just getting Heath ready for his new position. And he had been on the board once before, but welcome him back to the board.
Jalene Carpenter: That's awesome. And, of course, I have so many questions, Phil, just from an industry perspective and somebody who literally could geek out on and talk long-term care all day. But I have to recognize not all of our guests know the ins and out of our industry. Even people who work in our industry sometimes don't know all the ins and outs.
But I want to first start with, you've had a lot of success in your time as chair, and I can only imagine how much effort it is. And I think that's something I want to start with. Talk to me about what it means to be chair for American Health Care Association and how insane your schedule is and the demands of it. I think we don't recognize that there's this volunteer who is chair of the board.
Phil Scalo: Well, I start with saying it's a great honor to be the chair and to be representing so many wonderful people who dedicate so much of their life to taking care of others. And I think that's a lot of what Peter's stories are about. As far as the last couple of years, it's been a tremendous transition. We went from having our long-term CEO retire, hiring a new CEO. Both tremendous people. We had the staffing mandate to fight, which was very interesting for me because being a lawyer, I understood how we could win and we won on many levels there.
And we have some great opportunities now for some regulatory relief, but I have traveled around the country because, to me, when I was thinking about becoming chair, it was important, it's always important to me to hear the people and to listen to every state, because every state is different. As much as we all do the same thing, how it's done in a lot of states is different. So it was important for me to be there. It was also important for me to show the state leadership and the state members that the American Health Care Association does care about them.
So I made a point of getting to as many states as I could. I enjoyed my time in Lincoln last fall, and I actually went from Lincoln to Los Angeles to see Rutgers play USC and then go to the World Series. So I'll remember that trip. A lot of what I do as chair is really just try to get focused on and listen and make sure that the American Health Care Association is addressing issues. I mean, just yesterday, I saw some emails from members of a legal committee about an issue that I weighed in on, and we got a great team on the quality side and they're working on it already, dealing with some plans of correction.
So from that perspective, having the ability to make a difference on a national level has actually been surprising to me how much of a difference we can make on a national level, and how important it is that each one of the members sees that the chair of the American Health Care Association is just like them. I operate, I have the same cares, I have the same troubles, and I want to make sure that we hear what goes on and what people need to get done. And hopefully, I hear, that we're getting things done and people are happy with that.
Jalene Carpenter: Well, let's go back just a little bit because every state is unique and every state is different. And your leadership, especially when it came to minimum staffing and what I would say is the aggressive, maybe it's the New Jersey part of really advocating for the lawsuit and that's not everybody's style, right? That's not everybody's approach. And how did you get everybody collected to agree, like, "We need to be this aggressive"? Because so many times in this industry, you don't want to be that aggressive. And so how was that process? Because to me, that's some backdoor politicking that probably was a lot harder than it looked.
Phil Scalo: Well, it was harder in some ways, but you mentioned New Jersey-direct. You've heard me say I have two personalities. I am a Gemini. I have New-Jersey-direct and I have Colorado-nice. So I had to do a combination of both of those. But Mark Parkinson was also a big advocate. And when we saw the opportunity, when we looked at it, it was very clear to us as lawyers, both Mark and I are lawyers, that Congress did not give CMS that authority.
And as you look at a lot of things that CMS has done over the years, they've taken on themselves to grow what the statute says, to grow what the regulations say, far beyond what they're really entitled to. So with a couple of the Supreme Court decisions, in Loper Bright, which removed deference to agencies, and the Jarkesy case, we felt that we had a good opportunity and we looked around the country and said, "Where is our best opportunity to have that done?"
Convinced the board to commit several million dollars to a litigation, and hired the best appellate litigator in the country. He's argued more cases before the Supreme Court than any other litigator in the last 20 years. So we got a great team together, won the first round. On the political side, we're able to get a 10-year moratorium on the, I think you've referred to it as OB3. I don't know if...
Jalene Carpenter: We go with OB3.
Phil Scalo: OB3.
Jalene Carpenter: We moved half over, our old BBA. And we've also... "One Big Beautiful" is a bit too much. So OB3 gets us where we need to be.
Phil Scalo: So we got that 10-year moratorium. And then we, just recently, because we know we had a strong case and with that moratorium, the Justice Department has withdrawn their appeals. So that is now in stone. That decision says that CMS can't do that. It's there forever. And then the last piece of that win, and going back to my sports days, it's very nice to win, but it's really nice when you bury something. And we think the CMS will be coming out with a rescission of that whole regulation. And so it'll be a total, total victory. And I guess from that perspective, in that litigation, we won the Super Bowl.
Jalene Carpenter: It's interesting because in our industry, it seems like you win the Super Bowl and a week later, you're suddenly ranked last amongst all the team.
Phil Scalo: As you know, as a state exec, a lot of it's, "What have you done for me lately?" And as I've said in multiple speeches I've given, I've been in this business since the '80s, and I can't even count how many existential threats we've had over those years. But what I've found is somehow we stick together because we're doing great things for people and we have a great mission, great cause. We stick together and somehow we wind up surviving and thriving to a large degree.
And I think the minimum staffing fight is a good example of that. It was a fight and people thought we were going to lose, but when I did announce it at the Quality Summit in the spring that we won the first round of that, I was amazed people cheered and stood up and clapped. I thought people would say, "Okay, that's good. You won that." But it meant a lot to people. And I'm getting a little goosebumps as I'm thinking about it because it was a surprise to me.
I'm standing there and sometimes I start some speeches with trying to acknowledge that people do things because standing ovation is something not our teams get as they walk into the building every day. So I stopped starting a call that way or a speech that way. But in this case, it was spontaneous. I was just amazed how people just literally jumped to their feet and I realized how important that was to people, and it brought it home to me and it was really rewarding to see that.
Peter Murphy Lewis: What a special, special moment. So how did you react, other than your goosebumps now? I think I cried.
Phil Scalo: Well, I was sitting there with Cliff, and as you know, we had to cancel the convention last year, last minute, because of the hurricane. So we were just at the part of giving out the... recognizing the quality award winners that we had, that we usually do at the convention, we did at the Quality Summit. So Chris Wright as vice chair was doing that. And then my phone started, I started to get in some texts and Cliff was getting texts.
We showed each other and we made a decision at that point that we'd give Chris the high sign and I'd go up and announce at a certain point that this happened. So I'm sitting there with a smile, Chris is looking down on us wondering was his fly open or is there some kind of problem? And so I finally had to tell him what it was. And so I announced it. And it was really, really a special moment.
Jalene Carpenter: It reminds me a little bit of... I think Peter and I had that feeling when we actually got to show people the docuseries. And to have you in the room was just unbelievable, I think for both of us. I know you've been gracious about sharing your experience with others, but for those who haven't heard, can you just talk about what that experience was like for you to be able to see that for the first time?
Phil Scalo: Well, you had invited me to do that. And I said I wasn't sure what it was going to be like. I know I've seen some of Peter's stuff and I admire the work he does and his passion for it, but we were in a beautiful theater in Lincoln, Nebraska. And when I started seeing those and I looked around the room and would see the reactions of people, my first reaction to that, again, it's a goosebump feel for me now, is that, "Wow, this is the best I've ever seen of somebody telling the story of what it's really like in long-term care facilities."
The passion was there, the light that goes on in people's faces when they get cared for the way it is, and the caring of our staff. I've often said that we have, in every building, there are people who work very, very hard, sometimes two jobs. And if they hit the lottery, they'd probably still volunteer to work in the facilities. So when I saw those, I've said this to Peter multiple times when I've seen him, "I have never seen stories given that really reflect what we do on a daily basis."
And I think, to me, it's very important because our next battles are really to get legislators on the state and federal level to understand the great things we do and why we shouldn't be, in some cases, a punching bag. We should be supported, we should be a priority for everyone from that perspective, especially as this age wave hits.
In the '50s, we built schools, and in the next 10 years, we really need to be focusing on caring for the elderly. And doing it in such a way that it enhances their lives, not just warehouses people, but makes their life and their last days, whether it's last days, last years, last months, really something that we could all feel we've done something great and made a difference.
And I think the more we get legislators to see that, and it's hard to get them into the buildings, unless there's some political basis for getting in there. But this docuseries that you've done in Nebraska, and I know Peter, you're doing a couple other states, I think tells the story. And the more we can get that out, the better it's going to be for all of us.
Peter Murphy Lewis: Phil, thank you for the kind words. I'll tell a personal story, and then I want to hear yours. I think one of the reasons that we wanted to do "People Worth Caring About" is because I kind of lived in a bubble, I would say, from the day I was born, probably up until when I first got into long-term care, which is in 2020. And 2021, I think, I became a CNA. I, for 40 years of my life, I thought everyone realized how great nursing homes are and how great caregivers are. And I was just surrounded by people who thought the same as me. The caregivers who took care of all of my grandparents were amazing. Every experience I went into a nursing home was amazing.
And then when I got into long-term care, I kind of saw people with their head down, almost embarrassed, like, "I'm just a CNA," "I'm just a director of nursing in a nursing home." And I wanted to combat that. I realized that I had lived in a bubble. You came from, and you'll have to remind me of your story, but you were an attorney working to buy a nursing home for a group of physicians, and then you ended up taking it over and became the CEO. That transition... and where were you in your bubble? Did you know the perception? You walked into an industry that people weren't going to admire you for.
Phil Scalo: Well, you almost have it correct. What happened was, I was an attorney and I had a health care client and they represented some physicians in what was then a rural area, New Jersey. A firm that I started with after I got out of my judicial clerkship represented one of the hospitals, probably the hospital system in the county where I lived. So I learned a little bit about that. And I wound up actually representing a group of savings and loans that was foreclosing in a nursing home for somebody who actually stole some money.
So my initial impressions were not good. But then when I went in there and saw the people and how they care for people, I had a different approach. And when my clients wanted to build a better nursing home, I guess is best way to say it, I helped them with the financing and then I wound up negotiating contracts for them. Then I was asked, "We don't know very much about business and stuff. Would you like to become an investor and work with us?" And I was 30 years old and I said, "Oh, this sounds great. I'm going to be in a business."
And then we ultimately opened a nursing home. Ultimately, I was the managing partner. And for a number of years, we had a small nursing home, which I think small for New Jersey size, it's 120 beds, and we decided to grow a little bit. And from that perspective, I carried what I saw initially in that nursing home, the caring. And what we did when we started is we wanted to make sure that we were operating a nursing home that people felt very comfortable in, whether it's employees, residents, and that if my grandmother was there, she wouldn't say to me, "They're not taking care of me." Or if my mother's friend's mother was in there that we weren't taking... we'd be proud of it.
And we built up something that was from that perspective. So I've been in two professions and I've been a CEO of a nursing home company and then senior living, and I've been a lawyer. And both of those professions are not really highly regarded, except when you're dealing with... because everybody's... lawyers are bad except your lawyer. Your lawyer is doing a good job for you. "Nursing homes are bad, but the one my mother's in, they're really good." So that's the kind of thing we have to overcome in saying that they're all good.
There may be some stories of ones that are not doing the job, but that gets weeded out. And then that's not something the American Health Care Association or any of the state associations support. I know that, I'm sure, Jalene, you get calls every now and then. Somebody says, "You got to help me with this survey." And you want to say to them, "Well, do a better job." And they say, "You're wrong." And the people that run good buildings and good facilities, they don't make those calls because they realize, "You know what? I didn't do a good job here, and I got to make sure we do better next time."
And one of the frustrations that I've always had over the years is where we do a good job, but a state surveyor who looks at a record says, "No, you didn't." And going to a CNA and explaining, "You did all the right things. You provided great care, but we got a deficiency." That's something they don't understand. How could I do everything right and still get a deficiency? So those are the kind of things that is on our agenda now, fighting for more reasonable regulations and getting CMS to understand what we really do.
I was amazed, a number of years ago, I was at a meeting with the then medical director for CMS, who candidly admitted nobody on their team had ever worked in a nursing home. So it's sort of like, how do you regulate somebody if you don't know what they do? It's like putting taxi drivers in charge of the FAA. They've never flied a plane, but they've been able to drive a car, so it must be the same. It's always boggled my mind, from that perspective.
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Jalene Carpenter: So how optimistic are you, Phil? I mean, you're a conscious guy, right? You're an attorney. You're not going to... not going to overpromise here, but what do you think the likelihood of some regulatory relief is out there? And I say that, we know our industry needs regulated. We take care of human beings 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but there are some reasonable things out there. So what do you feel like is the best likelihood there?
Phil Scalo: Well, we hear from the Trump administration that they want reasonable regulation and we're hopeful that Dr. Oz sees a lot of that. Dr. Oz is a medical provider, actually was a New Jersey guy for a long period of time. And I think that we have two things going for us. One is CMS has gone too far with a lot of things, like strict liability is one example that really strikes me.
And the example I often give, residents sometimes get agitated, a resident maybe lash out another resident, and somehow the facility gets an abuse tag and is told that they have a deficiency, although they've done everything right. So it's things like that. And some of the things... immediate jeopardy. When I first started in this business, immediate jeopardy meant there was something serious wrong and you better fix it right now.
Now, CMS, they go back to the office and three, four weeks later say, "Oh, by the way, you have an immediate jeopardy." "Well, if it was immediate, it happened nine months ago and you're telling us later." I think those things are just so reasonable, I think we have a good shot at that. If we get to the point, and we call it our Better Way package, there's a better way to do things. And we believe that from a regulatory perspective and we've written out what the regulation should be.
We believe, from that perspective, we have a very good presentation. And if people are going to look at how can we best improve quality? How can we best protect residents? How can we best serve the public? This Better Way package will be the way to do that. And I'm optimistic, but cautiously so. And sometimes it's frustrating because I want to say to some of the regulators, "Do you have a clue what's going on? I mean, listen to this, listen to yourself. Would you want to be regulated that way?"
So I'm hopeful that we'll be able to do that. I know that we were scheduled... been trying to schedule a meeting with Dr. Oz. We've had some other meetings at lower levels. Now this government shutdown is going to delay a lot of that. But in the meetings we've had with David Wright, who heads and survey for CMS, he's hearing us. Now, the question is whether we can get the CMS to move on things. I'd liken CMS to be a battleship that's hard to turn, but to make it even difficult, it's on dry land. It's not even in water. So it's going to be hard to do that.
But I think, in all the years I've been involved in this, I think this is the best opportunity we've ever had. Because of one, I think the pandemic has made people realize how important what we do is. I think, two, we have some legal issues and cases on our side. And three, I think it's the point where stories like the docuseries that you have, people and especially legislators are starting to understand, "You know what? These people are good people and we got to make sure we do the right thing for them."
So that's going to be our next challenge. And I think we're getting to that point. And we know we've had positive comments from all the leaders in Washington about nursing homes, which five years ago we were not having. So I think, from that perspective, we have maybe the perfect storm in a good way — legal, regulatory, and public opinion all coming in at the same time.
Peter Murphy Lewis: Phil, I have some questions for you around moments in your life that made who you are. You just shared five minutes of optimism that I don't think I've heard in long-term care convention a while, so I'm excited. So I want to hear how you became who you are today. And the first question I have is around Rutgers.
I think, as we get older, we ask sometimes superficial questions around how what you studied ended up impacting you. I want to ask you, and maybe become an attorney was the most important thing that impacted you as a professional, maybe not. But if it is or isn't, what is the non-legal moment, experience, learning, relationship at your time in Rutgers that impacted who you are today?
Phil Scalo: I was a first-generation college student, and I had the opportunity to play sports in high school and being recruited. I was in a very, not an academic-focused high school. Let me leave it at that. Very few people from my high school went to college. A lot of them became carpenters and plumbers, and I've done really well. So when I got to, my guidance counselor in high school called me in for my counseling of, "What are you going to do with the rest of your life?" And said, "I heard from the coach that you got a bunch of letters from colleges. They're all good colleges. Good luck." That was the extent of it.
So when I got down to Rutgers, seeing, and at the time, which I'm dating myself here, Rutgers College was still an all-male institution. It went co-ed my sophomore year. So what I saw there was something that impacted me. I'm thinking, "Mom, I'm going to go to college. I don't know how I'm going to do in college." And I realized somewhere in the middle of my freshman year that, you know what, I could do this. And I joined a fraternity with some people who were just a bunch of remarkable people. I mean, so remarkable that 50-something years later, we still get together, multiple classes once in August for a golf outing and a bunch of other things.
Just some incredible people who were very positive about life, understood the value of hard work. It was considered a jockhouse, a fraternity with a lot of athletes. And I looked at it and I said, "You know..." In fact, one of the things in a book that I recommend to people, "Make Your Bed," is one of the 10 lessons is something that I think it says only the size of your heart matters. And you've seen me. I'm not a big guy. So when I learned that, you know what, if you work hard, if you have a passion for something, and I learned that in college, that you can be a success at things.
And one of the things that I've also learned is don't keep patting yourself on the back of how good you are because there's always somebody that's better and there's always somebody who can do something better. And I learned that... I learned how to work hard. I learned how to aspire. And I learned how to stay humble because the people I were around, if I got a big head — that phrase "big head" — they would certainly deflate it very quickly. So I think that was the most formative thing for me. Understanding, one, I could compete in that sphere and, two, realizing that I don't have to be a star, but the harder I work, the better I'll do.
Jalene Carpenter: Now, Phil, did you meet your wife in college? Because otherwise we're going to have to retape this part and you're going to have to say, "The most important thing was that I met my wife."
Phil Scalo: Well, I actually met my wife in high school and we dated in college.
Jalene Carpenter: Okay, good. Good. Perfect. We're all fine then.
Phil Scalo: I was, like, 30 years older than her when we were in high school. I just got to make sure I say that.
Jalene Carpenter: Okay, good answer.
Phil Scalo: So we've been together a lot of years. And part of my involvement in Rutgers now, how the school has changed so much. It is one of the most diverse state universities in the country. And seeing the success of the women's athletics program, which didn't even exist while I was there, it's just amazing. So one of the joys I have is having a letter there and being a student athlete, I now serve on the board's Intercollegiate Athletic Committee. And it's just a real thrill for me from that perspective to see where they are. And that's been my passion, Rutgers Athletics. Now, being in Nebraska, we're sort of in a lot of sports down in the bottom, but we keep trying. We talk about New Jersey grit. And so we're going to get there. We're going to get there.
Peter Murphy Lewis: I have one more learning question for you, Phil, and then, Jalene, I'll let you take it wherever you want. I want to go to, I think, what the opposite learning is for when you got into business — investor, managing partner, non-attorney. I think those of us who are not attorneys, we always know what it would benefit if we'd studied to be an attorney, and that's pretty obvious. But I don't think I've met a lot of attorneys who got into business afterwards. I'd like to know what becoming an investor, a managing partner, taught you as an attorney now that you also advocate for long-term care.
Phil Scalo: It taught me I can't be as aggressive as I was on a football field and I have to build a team as opposed to fight somebody. And that's something that it took me a little while to understand that being a tough guy was not the way to lead people. Inspiring people, getting them to understand your passion and getting them to work as a team, from that perspective, and learning a little bit about, which I knew as a lawyer, you got to settle cases. I was a litigator.
But the second book, I actually recommend to people, is a book called "Getting to Yes," which had an impact on me, which is, how do you get people with opposite views or conflicting views to get on the same page? And that's something that I've prided myself on is be able to build a consensus. I know, Jalene, you asked earlier, how did I get people to get behind, rally behind doing the minimum staffing? Well, I had a good partner there in Mark Parkinson, is a pretty persuasive guy.
But from the perspective of laying out the benefits to people and why it's going to benefit everybody and why the risk is there, but it's a risk that we have to take because there's no other alternative. So what I learned from that perspective is you have to make everybody feel important because every person working in an organization has a role. And if you don't get them all to do their role with passion and with pride, you're not going to have a good organization.
So I went from being sort of an attack person to being, "Let's all get along and let's get this done the right way." So I guess it's a combination of my Jersey-direct and my Colorado-nice approach to things.
Jalene Carpenter: Awesome. Well, so Peter, you're going to kick it over to me, but really you haven't got to ask the one question you wanted to ask.
Peter Murphy Lewis: I want to ask some travel questions because Phil spends a lot of time in airports and a lot of travel. So I think I have two, and I'll let you take both, field both, or take whichever one. What is the most memorable airport story you have? It could be positive or negative. And then something personal about you when you travel, something you pack, something superstitious, something that most people probably don't know about you or might not pack.
Phil Scalo: I'm a just-in-case guy. So let me answer the second question first. In fact, my family has said that on my tombstone is going to be probably the phrase of, "Just in case we need this, we need this." So I'm one that I take chargers to make sure I have all the chargers. I have an extra set of headphones. What I always pack, and most people don't, is — it's going back to my days as an athlete — I do still work out on a regular basis.
So I carry these bands that in the event there's not a gym there or in the event that I don't have time to go to a gym, I can use these tubes that I can do some exercise with. So no matter where I go, I travel with some workout gear and those bands. Now, I don't know if a lot of people do that, but to me, I have to find space for those things.
And as far as memorable travel, I've been very fortunate. And first of all, I love flying. One of my big regrets in life is that I didn't become a pilot. I've flown some, and I still say I'm going to get my license. I may be the oldest guy to ever get a license to fly, but I love flying. I have some friends that are pilots, so I generally just deal with it.
But my memorable experience is from the first times I flew. I was in law school and we got married and we were going to Aspen, Colorado for our honeymoon. I had just started skiing and I figured, "Well, let's go to Aspen. I've heard a lot about it." And we were overpacked because we had no idea what we were supposed to bring. As we were in, it was then Stapleton Airport in Denver, we were waiting for the second flight into Aspen.
And as we were standing there, our pilot's leaned out of a cockpit of a DC3, which is, they were using in those days, and said, "Are you supposed to be flying an extra flight? Well, we're going now. Why don't you just come on this flight with us?" And I said, "Wow, we can do that?" Now, you don't do that anymore, but that's probably something I remember the most.
And then from the perspective of flying, when I'm in an airport, I try to get into a zone and just relax. And Peter, you travel a lot. You know what that's like. And I guess what amazes me is to see people so stressed about travel. And I often try to wonder, "Are they going to something nice? Are they going to something stressful? Is this a vacation? Is it business?" So that's, from my perspective, travel.
Jalene Carpenter: I have one final question for you, Phil. Peter talked about early on in the industry. We always use a term "just a." And I can tell you, at one point I thought of myself as just an administrator. And I looked at people in your role and thought, "I'll never be somebody like that. And I would never be somebody on the board at AHCA." So what message would you say to somebody young and eager out there, but might think of themselves as "just a"?
Phil Scalo: I hate that phrase, "just a." In fact, we outlawed it in our company because no one's a "just a," and especially when you talk about it in long-term care, senior care. Every interaction that an employee has with a resident or with another team member is important. And I think that's something that is just abhorrent to me because I think back to my days of, "Can I actually survive in college? I'm just a kid from Lodi, New Jersey."
So, to me, it's just something that I've just always hated from that phrase. And when I hear people say that, no matter what we're talking about, I immediately, I guess it's somewhat of a lecture saying, "No, you're not just a..." So I can appreciate exactly what you're saying. And I think that's something that the docuseries I think really addresses. No one in that series that's servicing those residents will say, "I'm just a..."
They have that passion, and certainly the residents that are appearing on those things, they don't feel that person is a "just a." So that's a great way to look at this. And if I have a passion for certain words not to be used, to me, those are curse words from that perspective. I just hate it when somebody says, "I'm just a..."
It's just a meaning and it's just everybody has that great potential. And we have signs in our buildings that say, "Make a difference today." And you can't be "just a" if you're making a difference in somebody's life.
Jalene Carpenter: I don't think there's a better way to wrap up our interview together than that, Phil. Thank you so much for spending time. I know Peter and I both appreciate it immensely.
Phil Scalo: Well, thank you both for all you do. You make the job of American Health Care Association chairperson a lot easier because of the passion and the storytelling, and for the good work that you, Jalene, and other state execs do every day to make sure that we're not considered just another business, from that perspective. It's a calling. And I think that from that perspective, you both are bringing a lot of attention to that. And I appreciate that as an operator and as a member of the board of the American Health Care Association, thank you very much for all you do. You do make a difference.
Peter Murphy Lewis: Phil, thank you so much. Next time you travel from Colorado to New Jersey, you can skip Nebraska, come through Wichita, Kansas, and see me. I want to take you out to dinner.
Phil Scalo: Okay...
Peter Murphy Lewis: Thank you so much.
Phil Scalo: ... look forward to that. I'll tell my wife we got to take a 70 as opposed to 80. We'll do that. Thank you.
Peter Murphy Lewis: See you. That's a wrap on "People Worth Caring About," born from the documentary, built to keep the stories going. Shout out to Nebraska Health Care Association and Jalene Carpenter for helping launch it, and to Ohio and New Mexico for making future seasons real. Watch the docuseries online or at peopleworthcaringabout.com. And if this episode meant something to you, leave a review, it matters. Take care of yourself and the people worth caring about.
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